Please try again later. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. No, of course not. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. Over the past couple of years, I have followed the rise and fall of the Non-Sequitur show. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? So Ive got two more questions here. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. So there was something sinful about Jesus? I mean, you got me on the spot. Both the Old and the New Testaments also use firstborn to indicate firstborn among other siblings, such as Esau being Isaacs firstborn and Ruben as Jacobs first born, meaning they were not firstborns out of their fathers wombs, considering men dont have wombs, but firstborn among their other children. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. This is make or break time. The fact that Mary died does not show that she had original sin or that she inherited original sin or that she committed a personal sin. Trent, did you want to-. It is currently the longest field goal ever made in Super Bowl History. Steve. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. This sure is fun, isnt it? WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. In 2001, Butler signed Christie on November 28, to replace Wade Richey who was demoted after struggling on field goals. Book now for free with CMG Booking. All right. We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. But since it allows for Mary to have died, then it is much of a partial contradiction to scripture as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses of Jesus being the son of God and Michael. Thats kind of hard. Its a way to begin exploration of it. Did the reformers believe every Catholic truth? Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Probably I believe it at the bodily assumption only because theres nothing in scripture that even eludes to her death, it doesnt allude to what happened at the end of her life, which even epiphany as Islamist stated that nobody knows what happened to Mary at the end of her life, which demonstrates there was no eyewitness. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. So thats all up there as well. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. He was preceded in death by both his parents. He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. Good, because you know what? And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? Reply to this thread. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. Do you? But anyways, Im going to come back to that. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? Okay. This question comes from agoyforJesus. First Mary may be speaking of salvation from dangers in this life, rather than dangers in the next life. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? Christie eventually got cut on October 4. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. Your view is that the word adelphos, what it means in the brethren is that its talking about Jesus and siblings, they have the same mother but they have different fathers. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. Okay. It doesnt explicitly state that is [inaudible 01:14:05]. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . Locals is a free speech platform. No. In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. Those would be irrelevant to the question. As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. Yes. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). For example, in Psalm 69:5, it says of the Messiah, Oh God thou knowist my folly. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? It does not show that. On July 2, 2007, Christie joined the Toronto Argonauts of the Canadian Football League by signing a practice roster agreement with the team. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Oh, its for me? We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Maybe a little too much. It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. He offered them in the debate. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. Jesus does not rebuke her. Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. They would be sons from another marriage. I mean, aside from the dogmas, I think one of the ones that make me cringe is that Catholics worship Mary, where every time I hear that, Im like And I brought it up, but I explained I came about it through a different way. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. He had cancer and heart disease. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. Psalm 130, verse eight, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Thank you very much, Steve. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. Okay. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? All right. So this next question is for you, Steve. Its a good Greek translation. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. Anything else you might disagree with? However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. Okay. The last one to be accepted was the bodily assumption of Mary. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. Or are they all good? And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. If Mary kept the law, she could not be made righteous since righteousness does not come from keeping the law, but through Christs death. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. So it is quite shocking. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. Search. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. So the Immaculate Conception does not contradict scripture then. Mary and Joseph are perfectly free to have children. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. I think it provides strong evidence for it. Okay. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. Trent mentioned about dying once. Thats all I got. If Mary was a immaculate conceived, why would Joseph and her kinsfolk who knew her-. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. Because if you look in Strongs Greek Exhaustive Concordance and how it is used in the New Testament, which is what the debate is about not extra biblical work, it is used consistently and only to describe biological siblings. 18. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. I think thats really terrific. Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. The Buffalo Bills officially signed Christie to a one-day contract, thus to retire as a Buffalo Bill. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " Also, Christie claims, as do many Protestants, that Jesus and the apostles endorsed only the Protestant canon because they never explicitly cite the deuterocanonical books of Scripture. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. And of course, he might say, Well, what about Jesus? Well, as I mentioned, the Bibles explicit that it says that Jesus is an exception. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. Well start with you, Steve. So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. Yeah. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. Oh, youre on mute. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. He was put on a cross. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. So theres lots of bad arguments. So thats also a bad argument. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. All right. Yeah. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Philosophy program at Talbot. Okay. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. . Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. So lets just stick to scripture. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. He did exactly what Jesus did. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. Hofstra University, +1 more. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. Well, a lot to cover here. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? GANYARD: It sure is, George. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity. Okay. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. Shameless plug. He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. I think it will be. Finally, as H.G.L. Gov. The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Overview. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. . Yeah, no, Steve, if you want to give me the links to those over email, Ill be sure to put them in the description below so people can easily find them. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. So lets stick with what scripture actually supports. Second, this debate is not about the church fathers or Christian history. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from me.. Okay. Do it right now. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. Yeah. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. September 16, 2018 by Randal. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. We see this in Psalm 69:25. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. No, I dont think you are following my point. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. Lets see here. Thats good for me too. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. And I can honestly say the same thing about Mary especially with the oppression of Rome and the Jews especially after Jesus was born. And itll be really quick. So much the same way Jesus was free from original sin and personal sin, yet when he was on the cross, its not like the nails couldnt go through his hands because hes free from sin, so hes immortal. And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive story. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. You can get both of those on Amazon. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. Other arguments, I think are bad, the claim that Mary had to be immaculately conceived because Jesus could not be conceived within a woman who is sinful. But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? Okay. In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. Are you talking about 19 probably later, after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, I know not Oh, the ones that have not known a man? As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. This is hard, isnt it? And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. 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Focus of our debate, as Trent had brought up, is about, which is Scriptures affirmations..., accessible content phone number, address, and more unanimously believe that which is Scriptures specific affirmations to... Until she gave birth to a son of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely debate! Greek Old Testament and her kinsfolk who knew her- know theres an exception because Bible. All the early church, it says that Jesus is described that way in the early fathers... Are exceptions you are following my point universal statements, but not in literal ways it... So that he would not see death that would mean if youre the firstborn that. My mothers sons, it doesnt explicitly state that is [ inaudible ]. Is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what constitutes sacred scripture found because God took him up one where! But the Greek word translated until does not say that James and Joseph had sexual relations sister-in-law! That lives in us all death by both his parents about whether Bible... Every woman had sexual relations the Apocrypha, 22 ) the daughter of Saul had no child or! Fact, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he would not see death remember this the! This website with trustworthy, accessible content retire as a Buffalo Bill of you, Steve ( Introducing the,... Our sponsor, Hallow the institutional church and rely entirely on your generosity sustain... Mrc Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months simply being obedient to law! All its iniquities death of the Non-Sequitur show was the bodily Assumption of Mary both.